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Post by redwood on Nov 15, 2011 17:28:11 GMT -5
my tongue feels normal again now. Whew. One less thing to worry about, but I did switch to putting the troche between my cheek and gum and will do that for the rest of the month. I do feel like switching forms though, either to the oral or cream to see if that has a different effect (hopefully better effect) for me.
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Post by Karen on Nov 15, 2011 20:19:02 GMT -5
Hmm, well, I hope the hormone test reveals something that you can address!
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Post by brussie on Nov 23, 2011 18:22:52 GMT -5
So this is my second full cycle using progesterone cream. My MD had me start at just 10mg a day for days 16-26 on the first full cycle. This cycle, I used 10mg from days 14-16 and then I started using 20mg on day 17. I am now on day 23 and I have had some spotting for the last 3 or 4 days. I am also having some minor breast pain (I was pain free for the first time in a long time on my previous 10mg a day cycle).
My MD will be out of town for awhile due to the holidays, so I doubt I can get an appointment soon. In the meantime, I wanted to solicit some experiences or knowledge. (Also, my MD did warn me that this would take a lot of experimentation to find the lowest dose that successfully alleviates symptoms.)
Have any of you experienced spotting with progesterone cream? Has it been a sign of too much or not enough? Or does it depend on when you take it in your cycle?
Thanks!
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Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2011 19:16:05 GMT -5
If I spot on progesterone, its typically a few days after I start or a few days after I increase my dose. I've never quite figured out why, though I've read spotting is often a sign of not enough estrogen. My theory is that an increase in progesterone may change the hormone balance enough to cause spotting. Another thing to consider is time of day. Are you applying at the same time; or are you inconsistent? During a normal cycle, a drop in progesterone is what triggers a period. You may want to talk to your doctor about this, and if this may be part of the problem, discuss splitting your dose throughout the day? Whatever the case, it's worth discussing.
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Post by brussie on Nov 29, 2011 16:59:46 GMT -5
Thanks Karen. I think my problem is that I usually use the cream at about 9:30pm. But the night before the spotting started, I was out with friends and didn't use the cream until about 3:00am. So I think I am the cause of my problem I didn't quite realize the timing had to be so exact!
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Post by Karen on Nov 29, 2011 18:44:02 GMT -5
For some people, it doesn't have to be. But for some, it might. If you noticed spotting again and you can link it to a time when you didn't dose at the same time, you might have your answer!
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Post by redwood on Dec 6, 2011 22:10:15 GMT -5
Well, I got my my hormone blood test results. My estrogen is showing as fairly low now. Well, the estradiol was always on the low end of normal, but now the estrone is also low normal. Surprisingly, my progesterone is also showing as low, just barely above the low end of normal. Such a difference from the urine test which showed it as double the high range. My NP spoke with the lab and they said that there's another type of test that is more accurate which is a blood test from a pin prick on your finger instead of drawing blood from a vein, so I am re-doing it. Such a nice change from the urine test that was $550 and this test was just $25. I'm afraid I won't be doing any more urine tests.
So anyway, because I was having trouble with the troches irritating my mouth, I have switched to the cream instead. I will start taking it this thursday. My 200mg dose of troches is now 40mg in cream form. So it will be interesting to see if there is any major difference.
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Post by redwood on Dec 6, 2011 22:16:11 GMT -5
oddly, when I had a blood test 1.5 years ago BEFORE I was taking the troches (although I was using over the counter cream), my progesterone level was higher than it is now on this latest blood test. This time it was 4.2 and the last time it was 18 and that was on day 14, while this one was day 17, so it should be even higher. I will do the other test to see if it is more accurate, but I'm wondering if the troches actually didn't have that good of an absorption. Maybe the urine results were high because I was excreting most of it out in my urine. Makes me wonder... I had even taken a 1/4 troche about 1 hour before the blood test, so there should have been something in my system then.
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Post by redwood on Dec 6, 2011 23:19:10 GMT -5
brussie, I was looking at your post on the previous page about taking 600mg of progesterone a day for endo. I had seen that link before over a year or so ago when I was researching bio-identical progesterone. This is basically using progesterone like the progestins that are often used for treating endo. I once asked my gyn to define the main difference between between bio-identical progesterone and progestins and she said that progestins are stronger so you need less of an amount than for the more natural form (of course there is more to it than that, but I was asking about prescribing it for endo and that was her answer). That may be ONE reason why progestins often produce more side effects. So my mini-pill was most likely stronger than what I take now (and also a different substance).
Also, that looks extreme because they are listing an oral dose which is always much higher than a cream. I read that an oral dose of 200mg is the same as 20mg of cream. My 200mg troches were apparently the same as 40mg of cream according to the pharmacist. I'm not sure about the 300mg for the vaginal dose, if that is the equivalent of 600mg oral dose or what. Just a guess, but I would think the vaginal dose would be lower since it doesn't go through your digestive system. I read that the side effects were less with a vaginal dose. Strangely, when I had asked my gyn 1.5 years ago about taking prometrium, she said I could use it as a vaginal suppository ,but you actually use the same capsule that you take orally. That sounded strange, but I read up on it and people do this. I heard you use a tampon to hold the capsule in while it dissolves (so you don't have to do a headstand).
I ended up never trying it and went for the troches with another dr., although now I'm switching to cream. I was reluctant to try the cream since the OTC cream didn't help me when I tried it earlier. But I will give this compounded cream a shot.
Also, I wonder if UBC is doing any studies on endometriosis. I was just there today for my MRI.
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Post by Karen on Dec 7, 2011 6:58:38 GMT -5
I don't know if this is true for sex hormones but I know it's true for some other lab values so I'll throw if out there - when you supplement something, your body can sense it has what it needs and stops producing as much naturally. Thus, even with supplementation, between that and what your body is making less of, well, maybe that's part of it? A different kind if test and on a different day of your cycle can have an impact, too. Perhaps another way count the day of your cycles to compare is days past ovulation instead of day of your cycle. And keep in mind, our levels change throughout the day, which is why docs test several times to get an overall picture. just throwing some things out there to troubleshoot!
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Post by brussie on Dec 11, 2011 16:22:40 GMT -5
Hi redwood,
I didn't realize there was such a marked dosage difference between oral progesterones and transdermal ones. I did read somewhere that 90% of the progesterone taken orally is destroyed in the digestive tract, but I had disregarded it since the number seemed so high. Thanks for clarifying! Sounds like it might actually be around 80% or so.
Would be worth a try contacting CEMCOR at UBC to see if they are currently enrolling for any endo studies. I read a lot of info on the site and the director there seems very knowledgeable and she is definitely a proponent of progesterone.
My holistic MD won't use urine tests for progesterone, she thinks they are too inaccurate. She does blood tests for progesterone and estradiol and urine for estrone.
Is the blood test for estrone? The urine test is expensive, the one I had was $250 and was apparently the less comprehensive option. But it did show very high estrone levels. My 2-OH estrone was so high they couldn't measure it; at least that's the protective estrone. Though the 16-OH was also at the top end of the range. My MD said that generally the ratio is the most important part, and my ratio is good. However, she doesn't like absolute numbers of 16-OH to get as high as mine are, even with the 2-OH balancing it out.
My holistic MD did tell me that if you don't ovulate the month of the blood test, it will show much lower progesterone levels. The vast majority of your progesterone comes from the dissolving of the corpus luteum in the ovary after ovulation. Apparently your adrenal glands also make some progesterone, but my MD told me that the adrenal production accounts for only about 10% of overall progesterone levels in an ovulating woman.
It is true that the body will stop making some types of hormones when you take an exogenous form; this especially true with thyroid hormones from my experience. This happens due to various hormonal feedback mechanisms. With progesterone, it seems like this would only happen if you took enough progesterone to prevent ovulation (which can definitely happen; that's the whole premise of the CEMCOR large doses taken continuously). If you stopped ovulating, your only progesterone source would be your cream, troche, etc. and the tiny amount made by your adrenals.
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Post by redwood on Dec 12, 2011 0:36:39 GMT -5
The blood test was for progesterone, estradiol and estrone. The estrone testing is new apparently as my NP said it wasn't available in a blood test before. My estrone was high in the urine test but low in the blood test. I've been taking some things to lower estrogen, so maybe that helped OR maybe it's hard to compare the urine test and the blood test.
I honestly don't think I ovulate. I used to be able to tell when I ovulated and I haven't noticed this at all in the past year. I'm not sure I have ovulated since I have been taking troches.
I started the cream a few days ago. It's funny as it makes me feel I'm doing nothing now that I don't take the troches. I guess I'll have to wait and see how my next period is. With the prescription strength cream I can use such a tiny amount of the cream. With the OTC cream, I had to cover my whole arm in it to get the appropriate amount. That is one advantage to getting a prescription strength cream from a compounding pharmacy.
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Post by redwood on Dec 30, 2011 12:06:40 GMT -5
So this is my first cycle on the progesterone cream (after taking troches for 1.5 years). I have more pain than I've had all year. It started one day before my period and now it's day 3 of my period, so for 4 days now. It was worse on day 1. So....either I'm not absorbing it well, or??? It needs to be a higher dose? I'm taking 40mg. This time my period started on day 25 while I was still taking the progesterone. It doesn't seem to be enough to delay my period.
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Post by Karen on Dec 30, 2011 12:09:57 GMT -5
Aw, that's too bad! If I recall, you were taking a lower dose? I've read a lot of conflicting information about topical vs. oral, some say the doses are the same, others say the topical doses are much less. My doc is of the 'they are the same dose' camp. Can you get a blood test to compare your levels on the troches vs. the cream? I'd be willing to bet your dose is far too low.
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Post by redwood on Dec 30, 2011 22:54:06 GMT -5
I was taking 200mg troches and the pharmacist said the equivalent is 40mg cream, which is what I'm taking now. I am supposed to do another blood test in january, so we shall see....
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